FIRST SESSION

FIFTH & SIXTH SITTINGS	NORMAL		3, 23 AND 24 NOVEMBER 1999

VOLUME 8

SPINE:	VOLUME 8 1999


[The House will adjourn for lunch and we will come back at 2 o'clock].
(pg 16 ln 20)

[This is the work for Portfolio Committees].
(pg 27 ln 35)

[The person is so single-minded in his folly that he will not take the advice of others who are enlightening him as to his folly]
(pg 31 ln 12)

[Now let us go out of here, as one Parliament and go and deliver, and deliver to our communities the things which they need].
(pg 31 ln 14)

[a person cannot be rejected that way],
(pg 40 ln 28)

[our relationship is over]
(pg 40 ln 29)

[No I have seen better people]
(pg 40 ln 30)

[stop, do not move]
(pg 41 ln 16)

TRANSLATION:  	

	It is true to say that co-operation between the IFP and the ANC is a good thing which is welcomed by the vast majority of the people of South Africa especially in KwaZulu-Natal.  It is gratifying to see the level of closeness between these two parties especially at national level.  The commitment of the President of the ANC Mr Thabo Mbeki and the President of the IFP, the Inkosi Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi is becoming even more apparent.

	I would like to come down to provincial level, more specifically to the provincial level of KwaZulu-Natal.  This Province is led by Mr Mantshinga, Mr Lionel Mtshali who is the Premier in coalition.  It is true to say that we do not see eye to eye here and there.  What is praise-worthy is that the leaders at provincial level of these parties are doing everything in their power to tread carefully, I am referring to Mr Mantshinga and Mr Ndebele, Manzankosi the leader of the ANC in KwaZulu-Natal.  This is good because we even have a saying in Zulu which says: "A dog finishes the water with his tongue".

	We are requesting them indeed to co-operate with each other so that we do not return to the situation of political violence even though it has not completely abated but the situation is not the same as it was.  When we come down to local government level there is no co-operation between the leaders of these parties and what concerns me is that it is here at this level that our people usually fight.  T/E
(pg 43 ln 2)

TRANSLATION:  There is not even the smallest reason to portray me as an autocrat, what have I done to deserve this?  Where was I in the history of this country?  Where the forefathers of those who referred to me in this way were deeply oppressive towards us.  [LAUGHTER]

I will continue with the work of the nation which has been laid on my shoulders in spite of barbed words coming from all sides.  I have been on earth a long time, I am not an inexperienced politician.  I am in fact a very experienced politician.  [LAUGHTER]

The work of the nation is sending me at this time, the Department is sending me at this time, I am being sent to continue the work in co-operation with my colleagues of the ANC.  This after so much blood of our people has been shed.

After so much of our peoples blood has been shed, I am being sent to sit down and build, to build something that will ultimately be able to fulfil all the needs of the poor people.  Of the needs of those who have been marginalised, by the laws of the whites in this country it is important that we are able to meet each other half way.

It is possible that the aspirations and the desires of the
people who are poor who are the very people who brought us to this House in their thousands.  It is possible that those people will never again bring us to this House in their thousands.  We are compelled to do that what history commands us to do, we will do so in spite of the fact that there are problems in our working relationship.  "There is no marriage that does not have its particular problems".  Bad and negative expectations, doubts as to whether this work which has been thrust on our shoulders by the nation will in fact be done, we will carry this burden and commit ourselves that we will accomplish this, we will not disappoint you.  T/E
(pg 47 ln 7)

[Induna has eight minutes].
(pg 54 ln 30)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you hon Speaker, I am speaking at a bad time because I am speaking at a time when the young men and young ladies were more concerned with what was concerning them here and not even respecting the fact that it is an Induna that is speaking now.  [LAUGHTER]

Speaker, what I saw yesterday and today, frightens me, because it opens up the gates for this and that for those who do not want co-operation between the IFP and ANC, it opens a huge opportunity for them to enter.

Hon Minister of Transport, I want to say that this is a very important Department.  What I am trying to say is that people need transport wherever they go.  I want to say to the hon Manzankosi that this Department only has a problem when one speaks of the different types of motor vehicles.

There are those vehicles which carry goods, and there are those vehicles which carry people, those vehicles which carry people have proved that they are a great danger and that they are causing a great fracas squabbling over money wanting money.  The one who has not loaded up his vehicle with passengers wants to force the other person to off-load passengers, the passengers that he has already loaded so that he may load those passengers into his vehicle.  That is a problem hon Minister and it is my view that it is a problem with which this Department is faced.

There are vehicles which transport goods.

I know about those.  [LAUGHTER]  There are two types of vehicles hon Speaker.  There is a great issue regarding these two types of vehicles.  There is a great big vehicle that is driven by the President of the country Mr Thabo Mbeki and all the members of the ANC are passengers in this vehicle.

There is great vehicle which is driven by the Prince of KwaPhindangene who is the president of the IFP and members of the IFP arrive in that vehicle.  What bothers me - hon Bheki I am requesting that I not be disturbed.  You must keep quiet.  [LAUGHTER]

What I am trying to say hon Speaker, so that people will understand what I am saying on these vehicles.  One party rides one vehicle and the other party rides the other vehicle and they will meet further on at the place where they will meet.  But what bothers me in regard to passengers that are riding in these vehicles there are some who do not want to ride in these vehicles, who whilst they are riding in these vehicles their thoughts are that they should be walking stopping to dig things from the land, eating oranges which they should not be eating and which are unlawful while they are in this very House.

I say to you Mr Speaker that those people who do such things are damaging your Department, because these vehicles that I am speaking about which are loaded - these vehicles travel on your roads.  These vehicles are full of people who are travelling towards independence but there are those that do not want these vehicles to be ridden.  One such person was clearly exposed -  I will mention the name of that person.

You see I always had the greatest respect for the hon member Mr Burrows, I have respected him for many years, I used to refer to him as the Reverend with a beard.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E
(pg 56 ln 28)

TRANSLATION:  I continue Mr Speaker, I respected hon Burrows I use to refer to him as the Reverend with a beard, but the manner of his disrespect for the Premier, the Head of this House he asks whether he is speaking to Minister Ndebele, is there any correlation with this, do they make telephone calls to each other is that not the truth, is that not what should happen?  Those are issues which concern adults.  I say to my brother Burrows he must stop this.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E
(pg 56 ln 31)

TRANSLATION:  I will take it when I am finished.  To the hon Minister who's task it is to manage and govern this Department I want you to know that it would be very good if you would consult the men as you form the Transport Forum.  Because there are things which will ultimately lead to your Department being looked down upon because of this Transport Forum. 

Because there are some who are doing something which is not legal they attend meetings of the Transport Forum and then they return and they do not go via the Amakhosi, and they also do not go to the tribal authorities of the Amakhosi.  T/E
(pg 57 ln 8)

[I have great respect for my father-in-law but it would have been better had he included the women when he referred to the Minister speaking to or consulting the men.  He should have included the women].
(pg 57 ln 18)

[Two minutes only]
(pg 57 ln 28)

TRANSLATION:  Daughter-in-law I hear you.  In fact when my daughter-in-law speaks I should agree my child because the Transport Forum is mixed.  [LAUGHTER]

It would be good Manzankosi indeed if great wisdom were to be used in regard to those people who are in control of the Amakhosi areas and also those who are in control of community areas that there should be a place where they report to when they are going to meetings and when they return.  Because it is as if when they return you just see them wondering around and saying things as if those things belonged to them, whereas those things belong to the community, that is an area which I think should be rectified Manzankosi.

Another thing Manzankosi I know that you appreciate progress.

Two minutes left thank you.  I know Manzankosi that as you are in charge of this Department you are in charge of it on behalf of many people, there are the Zulu's, there are whites, there are Indians, there are coloureds.  You see when people talk about the the fact that people died and they are now being remembered, those people that died on the roads - I am not attacking you - when it is said that those people who died on the roads are being remembered you must get old men like us, and sit down and talk about the fact that when one talks about those that have died what are the traditions that must be carried out.  We must not confuse issues, hon Minister, and take chicken pieces and say we are talking to the people, we are bringing them back...  We start remembering them, and then the people died in greater numbers.

I say Manzankosi we should discuss things, sit down together with the people that are old that would be of assistance.  Thank you.  T/E
(pg 58 ln 1)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you hon Macingwane, hon Speaker and your House.  Firstly I want to say thank you to my sister who has just spoken, I followed her speech but I would ask that as far as these forums are concerned the ones that are being discussed, I would want them to be inclusive to the extent that all the community could be served by them.  I am saying this because I am also at Emlazi but I do not know how the Transport Forums are being formed, I do not know how they operate.

I thought I should also bring this to the fore and table it that is that what is being done is good but I will not attend the meeting if I have not been told about it.  I would like an answer in this regard.

Hon Minister let me touch on your speech which you delivered yesterday which was the report which was very gratifying and which spoke of dishonesty that has been going on for a long time in government circles particularly pertaining to garages, vehicles and petrol.

We heard yesterday that millions of rands were spent and eventually legal action was taken, people went to court.  Hon Minister you eventually went to court and you were lauded because you did this in response to the dishonesty and thievery that you saw going on.  Well be that as it may a person is waiting for a lot hon Minister, there is an explanation which I think you are going to give to us regarding this new bus company which is known as Thokomala.

Because a person hears, a person does not know, especially because I have also now been included in the transport committee. It would be good that when a person travels, that person travels with all the people.  It is bad to hear from press reports that someone has said something and yet the Minister is saying something else.  That leads to a situation where a person does not know what indeed is the truth.  It would be good if the hon Minister, could explain to us about Thokomala as regards how the company in fact operates.

We should also like to know about this huge noise that we have heard that has been made in connection with these buses.  Indeed what we want to know who is the owner of these buses.  Hon Speaker, while we are talking about what the Minister has said about garages, perhaps a person would have been happy as well to hear whether these garages are controlled or governed by people who have a lot of money.  At the time when things were being organised whether those people who did not receive formally are now also receiving, or whether those people who were not receiving anything in the past have also being given authority to have their own garages.

If that is so, because one accepts that there is money and that there is profit which comes from the government.  Is it also true that those who are the poorest of the poor, those who do not have the power, are such people able to receive that work so that they too would be put into a position where they could receive profit  from the government.  Were they able to perhaps have dreams about them doing the work together and also forming co-operatives so that they are able to reap economic benefits of this country and they too are able to assist this country in which we live.

Something else that one would request an explanation from the hon Minister of Transport, child of my Reverend, would be in connection with hearing more about this project which you started here at Pietermaritzburg which in my opinion is a good thing.  I heard him speaking from a vehicle which was equipped with a megaphone in connection with people coming to buy parts, the taxi people have been helped, I realised that this was a good thing but I asked myself in my heart how far this project would go, would this project reach Mahlabathini would it reach Ngoje and would it reach other areas of KwaZulu-Natal so that all would be able to benefit.

In conclusion hon Minister there is an issue which you have left out and that is the issue of the DTMB buses.  We have heard it said that they too are going to have companies organised for them, that in fact they are going to be privatised.  I would like to say to the hon Minister the community is complaining especially the community in which I live.  I would ask the hon Minister to look carefully at this issue and to take special note that the community of Umlazi is complaining, there are old woman who receive pensions who get tickets for these buses, there are small children who get discounts on these buses and people are assisted by being able to put they their luggage in these buses rather than the taxis.

There was a big conflict which the people raised which led to these buses been made available.  I would ask the hon Minister to look carefully when it comes to this issue of the privatisation of bus companies, I am speaking specially in regard to the DTMB buses, because I know the history of this issue from the beginning up until now, at present the people are complaining, they are asking themselves, what shall we do if these companies are given to the private sector.

I am requesting my hon Minister that when he proceeds with an issue such as this, that the people living in that area should be taken into his confidence, as these matters should be discussed so that it becomes apparent that those people who were receiving concessions, such as the old women, it would be important to see whether the new person who is going to take over will continue with those concessions or not.  Whether the school children who are receiving assistance will continue to receive assistance when the new company takes over.  Thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 62 ln 2)

[Thank you Miss Xulu.  All I have to do is to ask Mr Rajbansi to speak].
(pg 63 ln 14)

[Arrest them hon Ndebele].
(pg 67 ln 28)

[via kwaMthiyane next to my home which they know]
(pg 69 ln 6)

TRANSLATION:  But having said that, let me go on to say that is the English, I am also in agreement with that Mr Speaker.  It would have been better if the Chairperson of this portfolio committee had been present because we should have been able to tell each other in the open here that if the the Chairperson of this committee, that does not mean to say that that Chairperson is taking all the power.  It does not mean to say that the Chairperson is becoming equal to the Minister or is taking all the power of the Department, but this is a job that has been given, and has to be done just like the others that have been given jobs that they have to do, it does not mean that one has to become the cock of the walk. 

Unfortunately those who become the cock of the walk eventually exposes themselves to the Department and when that has happened the people look at you and they listen to you and they say oh, we trusted this person.  In conclusion let me take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister and his Department and the people that are in it.

I have no doubt that the majority of this House supports you in all your endeavours, so if they try something Minister do not loose heart, there is light, there is light in front of you, the people can see your good deeds, the people who chose and who are the reason for you being here will praise you.  Thank you.  T/E  
(pg 69 ln 22)

[But if you want something to be done, get a woman]
(pg 71 ln 36)

[You dress well]
(pg 71 ln 17)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Mr Speaker.  The Induna's suggestion is as follows:

	1.	In order that all processes be on sound footing, and due respect be displayed to all departments of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration, and with due regard and adherence to the principles of the coalition government, Ministers of the various government departments must have mutual respect.

	2.	Under no circumstances should any Minister encroach into the domain of the other Minister, without any mandate from the Minister whose territory would be a matter for discussion, (at any level of government).

	3.	Each Minister must avoid discussing issues which fall within the ambit/purview of another Minister, to hold discussions with the National Government without consulting the Provincial Premier, and communicating first, with the Minister, who is the political head of the Department, which is to be the subject for discussion.  T/E
(pg 81 ln 17)

[The hon member Mr Nxumalo]
(pg 81 ln 28)

[The hon member Mr Shabalala]
(pg 82 ln 10)

[The hon member Mr Bhamjee]
(pg 83 ln 9)

[It seems as if the hon Minister of Health is not available at present.  I do not think we should take a long time to finish item 8.2.]
(pg 93 ln  32)

TRANSLATION:  I thank you Mr Speaker.  I rise to honour your House for the pivotal role it has played.  Thank you very much to my brother on the other side where he has spoken particularly about the issue of rape of women.  Where we are facing a problem is that after we have been raped - the rapes usually take place in our residential areas.

Then one goes to the police station.  Let me be specific and name the police station in the area where I live at Plessislaer at Edendale.  When you arrive there the police do not pay any attention to you and they do not take into account that you have been raped or whatever else may have been done to you.  So much so that after a women has been raped your police Mr Speaker, do not have a role to play once you have been raped.  We should actually visit these police stations, and then we can come to the one that is in Loop Street, then we can go to the one that is known as the Mountain Rise police station it is rotten there, Mr Speaker.

There is nothing that one could report to them, they ask you for a reference book and a work permit, they ask you what type of bloomers you are wearing, they ask you all sorts of things that one should not ask of a woman.

What action can we in this House take, when we have spoken, saying we are being raped but we are not being protected.  I am speaking about something that I had to confront which I saw happening, they came back and they asked me what colour it was.

Mr Speaker, I am very grateful that we have this opportunity to speak especially in regard with this Department of Safety.  We have our hon Chairman who we have a very high regard for, who was unanimously elected by this House, but when it comes to the place where it is necessary for us to do the work we do not see very clear results.  But some times we do not know where the Chairperson is.  The Chairperson should be like all of us. 

The Chairperson of this committee, here at Pietermaritzburg, Mr Speaker, never have so many prisoners escaped from the time I was born, this is the very first time.  We are talking about this committee but it is the first time that so many prisoners have escaped, all 22 of them.  I do not know whether this is because the prison was been renovated, if the prison was been renovated why were the prisoners not moved to another prison?

If my Chairperson is facing such great problems did we who are members of this committee go up there to face the situation?  The people at national level even arrived and we heard on the radio we who are members of this committee, here at provincial level, what actions have been taken.  T/E
(pg 96 ln 22)

[That is why I said she must continue]
(pg 96 ln 23)

TRANSLATION:  I am sorry Mrs Gasa for having addressed the Chairperson directly.  It is the procedure in this House that we address the Speaker directly, thank you very much for reminding me.

Perhaps Mr Speaker, what I should say is that we are very distressed, we who are members of this committee, we are distressed about the fact that so many prisoners have escaped to such an extent that members at national level had to come and look into the situation.  All the while we were here and yet we did not see the disaster and the damage, we did not see precisely how it happened.

Mr Speaker, on another occasion we would request the following:
take for example in this House, in this House there was an hon member who used to sit there at the back, that member's name was Bheki Mthembu.  Bheki Mthembu was killed and it was not a big issue, this shows that whatever the criminals do they do not respect anybody, it is necessary for the perpetrators of evil to be arrested.  They should not be released to do as they please because on another day it comes to you.

Now there is a problem because even the Councillors are killed as if it is mere poultry which is being slaughtered, or as if it is goats that are being slaughtered, but the big issue is that no one is arrested for all these things.  But the main intention of this House is that if you have touched a person because our National Constitution states, if you have touched a person at any stage if you have killed a person or if you have hit a person you should be arrested.  But in this Province we do not see people being arrested, people who have killed people, and the people who have killed all these people, there are very many people who have been killed and yet no one is arrested perhaps one person gets arrested.  Mr Speaker, the Department of Safety must especially look into this.

In conclusion Mr Speaker, I would request that this House should look into such things, this House must not only act because something has happened.  What should happen is that every day when things happen, this House should rise and go and look, it should not be that when new things have happened to certain people then people get up and go there, but when other people are affected then nothing is done.  I am speaking in particular in regard to political parties, it should not be asked what political party has been affected or whether this or that political party has been affected.  The political parties are the same, a persons life is the same, it has the same value.  Thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 97 ln 6)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, and the hon House, we are speaking about a very serious matter.  It is a matter which concerns the escape of prisoners from jail.

It will be remembered Mr Speaker, that any person that is in jail is a person that has been sent there by an order of a judge or an order of a magistrate that this person is a menace to society.  There are people who escape from jail who have killed other people, others have committed rape, others have perpetrated all sorts of evil.  It is not desirable and necessary that this evil should be there in this country but these people you find that have escaped from jail.

Mr Speaker, I as an elderly person, I will not say that there is failure or perhaps it is because of the Minister who is in charge of Correctional Services is not sharp enough.  One expects integrity but I will explain where the problem lies?

Mr Speaker, I think that we should cast our minds back and look back to the time when the apartheid government was still in power.  We should look to whether at that time such things were happening with such regularity?  Were prisoners escaping in such numbers?  The answer is clear to anybody who is present in this House that it was not so, the number of people that were escaping was not this great.

Someone will say no, it was better the escaping of prisoners was better than compared to now.  Speaker, there are a lot of people who say things have become so lax and this laxity is done deliberately, and that this laxness should be laid at the door of the people who were in control before.  These people are still there at the prisons and they are doing it deliberately, so that this government may be criticised, that this government that is now lead by black people should be criticised.  Then they can laugh and say there you are, that is what you can expect from a black government.

Because there are still people who are sitting at the jails, they are still in the positions which they held before at the jails.  Mr Speaker, this is a serious issue because from another point of view jails - my sister do not feel bad when I speak.  The jails are no longer governed or controlled by the government or by the Minister, I would agree with the point put across by my colleague Wessel Nel that the jails are controlled by the unions.

The Minister is in control of nothing, the government is in control of nothing, the jails are controlled by the unions.  

Mr Speaker, and the hon House, the members are part of the community, they are not afraid Mr Speaker, to commit corruption and evil because they know that if they are arrested and kept in prison they are going home, their mothers will be well treated because their favourites are controlling the jails.

If there is a way that this window or gap should not be used by people to enter through this burglar guard it should be removed or damaged because you see there are their people who assist them there in the jails.  

One might ask me whether it is not them who open the way for prisoners to escape, by them I am referring to the people that are in control of the unions.  I am very concerned because there is my child here, that is my colleague hon Ngcobo, who is a unionist.

I know that what I am saying now as an adult and as an old person that we are going to have to dig deep into this issue, and that we are going to have to discuss these things because these are truths which can be proved.  If there is a prisoner Ntombela who is in control here in the IFP section anybody who is a prisoner here can even have cake, this cake would have to be procured by illegal means because this person would be a prisoner of the IFP.  Even a person who is in the same position as Ntombela, even a person who is totally corrupt, who is in control of the unions was doing this in the jails with the intension to assist those criminals who have done evil things on the outside.

I know Mr Speaker, that today when one talks about so much oppression others think they are pulling wool over other peoples eyes, when black prisoners are arrested here and then they say that those prisoners should pay money because there has been oppression for a long time, and that oppression was caused by others, amongst us that is the National Party, DP, they did these things while they were in control.  They passed laws which oppressed people.  Today they are sad, they are being put in a position where it is difficult for them conscience wise but they say we will oppress you because you are not in a position to do anything about it.

Today the wheel has turned I say to my brothers that are on the far side who are supporting and uplifting the unions they must look carefully at this issue, that this issue must be kicked out if we want South Africa to have justice.  Thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 100 ln 9)

[Thank you Nduna.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Volker who has got six minutes only].
(pg 101 ln 21)

[From today]
(pg 106 ln 34)

[So, we should not hunt with dogs and run with rabbits].
(pg 107 ln 20)

[I have reminded you]
(pg 107 ln 30)

[No it is okay I will sit down Mr Speaker]
(pg 107 ln 32)

[someone is born in KwaZulu]
(pg 113 ln 25)

[In our homes not in the rural areas]
(pg 115 ln 5)

[They will face the consequences]
(pg 121 ln 15)

[Who said so?]
(pg 125 ln 6)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Mr Speaker, I am speaking at an opportune moment because I am speaking just after this hon Bheki Cele. [LAUGHTER]  The first thing I want to refer to is the part where he referred to the death of Cyril Zulu where he touched on the arrest of Sekhonde where he said those who are involved in the killing of Cyril.  It surprises me that the hon member Bheki, how could he speak about a case which is being investigated by the police and then he comes and speaks here in Parliament.

He has already testified to the fact that the police are well aware that they have caught the right person, that person has been arrested.  I David Ntombela did not know that Sekhonde has changed the truth, I do not know that.  Secondly Mr Cele has spoken about the issue of S J Smith Hostel.  I David Ntombela agree with him, even now I still say I refused to be under the flag of the ANC when one is talking about parliamentary issues.

Where you that day before had gone and put up ANC posters asking us to be under the ANC.  We will never agree if I am here, I will not agree to attend a parliamentary meeting under the auspices of the ANC, I will not agree to that.

Mr Speaker, we spoke here about the issue of a certain person who died, the dead person being Cyril Zulu.  Let me start by saying I and my party, all of us here in this Province, in this land, we criticise the killing of a human being irrespective of who that human being may be who has been killed, we criticise that.

I David Ntombela, I criticise the killing of any person, whomsoever that person may be, but I believe that the lives of people and the killing of people should be the same because God is in control of peoples live.  It should not be said that so and so has died that person must ......because people die everyday and nothing is done about it.

The death of people is the same in God's sight.  It might be a mayor, it might be a doctor, it might be a president, it might be anybody, death is the same.  It might be some nonentity who does not hold a position of note but the death of a person is the same, it should not make any difference what position that person holds.  A persons worth should not be judged according to the position that that person holds.

But it is a great truth Mr Speaker, that people are killed everyday and nobody says anything about them, even their funerals are not taken notice of, even by the officials of political parties.  For others even the very leader of the party concerned attends the funeral and the leader says that he wants to pay respects at the burial of that person but yet people have been dying everyday and nobody has paid any attention to them.

We must look at this, that this is very demeaning it is tantamount to a very serious way of swearing at a person.  We must remember that it is a person that has died, we must desist from saying that such and such a person has been killed by such and such a party or organisation, because that alone is conveyed to the family of that person, it is conveyed to the supporter of that particular organisation or party, that such and such a person has been killed by the supporters of such and such an organisation or political party.

You will remember that the death of this person that we are talking about namely Cyril Zulu - if I am bowlegged I must remember that I am bowlegged and I cannot do anything about it, if I am bowlegged, I am bowlegged. [LAUGHTER]

It should be remembered that when a person belonging to a certain party has died, then others start talking and they say that that person such as Cyril has been killed by the IFP.

They have mentioned him while you were quiet Ntombela, I say we should desist whenever a person has been killed we should desist from saying that that person has been killed by such and such a party because....T/E
(pg 125 ln 12)

[Nduna let me ask the members, we have a Rule 53 and 54 let us look at it and work according to it, we will be very happy if we conduct ourselves according to these Rules.  Carry on Nduna]
(pg 126 ln 13)

[Hon member is left with one minute].
(pg 126 ln 26)

TRANSLATION:  And then it is said such and such a person has been killed by so and so, they even go so far as to say Mr Speaker, they say the killers of Cyril came from Nongoma, that is no secret, those are the people who have allegedly been arrested.  They have been taught by this propaganda that says that the killers come from Nongoma.  They need to rectify this type of talking especially over on the other side, these people from the ANC.

It would be good Mr Speaker, if we were to commit ourselves to do this in truth, so that we would not have a situation that when so and so is killed, that people would write in the newspapers, and go to the radio, and put up posters which are taken from everywhere, which say that so and so has been killed by so and so.  This needs to be eradicated completely.

I know that the presence of the Speaker, that there are some who would have it said that the House does not operate in a proper manner because at the time when you Mthimkhulu are talking...

When it is your turn to talk, when there is that sort of noise you will not fail to hear.  I want you to remember that.  In the face of God...  T/E
(pg 127 ln 32)

[Wait, let me rectify this.  What is he saying about you Mr Mthimkhulu]?
(pg 127 ln 20)

TRANSLATION:   Mr Speaker, he is saying when you are talking you Mr Mthimkhulu, you will not like it if people make this type of noise.  That is why I feel offended because I do not, why the hon member sees this and then singles me out, without me having said anything.  That is why I said Mr Speaker, the hon member must apologise for these words.

Because even in the beginning I kept quiet when it was said that the Prince was killed by the IFP.  He went on to say that it is known who the person is and then some people shouted out a name, then the member said it.  I kept quiet because he had not actually said himself, technically I could not say he had said it, I could not say that he was the person who said Mthimkhulu.  Because other members said it.  That is why I say Mr Speaker, I feel aggrieved, so hence I am requesting the hon member to withdraw these utterances against me.  T/E
(pg 127 ln 28)

[Let me start off by finishing of this issue.  I will come back to you sir and give you your thirty seconds.  If there are words such as those which you said - did you say those words Mr Ntombela]
(pg 127 ln 35)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I think that even the machine here, will say I do not know the person who is known as Mthimkhulu in this House, who will say that I directed my words to him.  Is his name Mthimkhulu?  [LAUGHTER]  T/E
(pg 128 ln 5)

[I think that will be the best option, that is to listen to the tapes, in order to find out what happened regarding this issue.  Carry on Nduna].
(pg 128 ln 15)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Mr Speaker, what I mean to say is the political parties of this Province should follow the lead of peace and not use tactics that lead them off course, even as far as that is concerned.  I know that eventually it will be said that certain people are going off course, I say the political parties must not trample on one another and say things which will cause violence here at provincial level.  I thank you.  T/E
(pg 128 ln 21)

[Let me start there Mr Speaker, that....]
(pg 129 ln 21)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I think before I say something specific I think that the hon member Bheki Cele, should apologise for saying that I am lying.  I will continue before he apologises, the issue of posters, I did not hear this issue from somebody else, I heard it from Bheki himself.  He told me on a one-on-one situation that he thought he was taking advantage of me, he told me that himself and he said it to me, I am not apologising.  Thank you. T/E
(pg 129 ln 32)

[Hon member is left with one minute]
(pg 132 ln 9)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you hon Speaker, Ndabezitha, Sindazwe.  It is my wish again today Ndabezitha with your permission to repeat what I have often said repeatedly in the past in this your House.

And that is that talking is not doing, talking is merely talking and doing is very different from talking.  These two things are two different things which are very different.  I thought Mr Speaker, if we were going to indeed preach the gospel peace, perhaps that gospel we would have preached it and it would have meant that those people to whom that gospel was to be preached that we ourselves personally should practice what we preach.  That we should not preach peace and get to the people to whom we preach peace and arrive in their midst with no peace ourselves.

Perhaps indeed it would be of assistance to us when we go to certain places in order to quell the problems which are costing innocent peoples lives.  As we went to the S J Smith Hostel just recently to speak with one voice after the criminality that was perpetrated against the Prince Cyril Zulu. 

We again did the same thing on the day of his funeral at Nongoma a few weeks ago.  Situations such as these Mr Speaker will have to be watched very carefully, we are confronting such situations, perhaps we remember well that reconciliation which is true reconciliation can come to this country.  True reconciliation is not just expected from political parties or from certain organisations in South Africa or from certain racial groups. 

But true peace and reconciliation will need to be something that we concern ourselves with.  It will need to be something which is done between all the racial groups which populate this country South Africa.

We can talk about forgiveness and peace but on the other hand if we continue in this your House Mr Speaker, to ridicule each other and bring each other down and if we continue to ridicule the esteem of the leaders and the members of this House as it happened in times past where people were pointing fingers at each other.  Some of those persons are members here.  Then they were pointed out by others as those that were facilitating the violence of apartheid, I remember well some of them at that time hon Speaker, that is some of our colleagues, were inside the Houses of Parliament at a time when laws were passed by the government of that time that is the time of the tri-cameral parliament.

Some of them or all those that are present in this House chose to leave as a sign that they did not go along with that law.  I am afraid in this your House hon Speaker, if we are going to tell the truth, if there is going to be that type of politician who liked something yesterday and when today dawned they heard that others were no longer going along with it, now they also do not like it.

Mr Speaker, there are some people who are now calling themselves blacks today, in this House of yours, but who entered the government in the tri-cameral parliament system which had been created by the government of that day and they did not ask where the other blacks were?  The blacks were separated, and they entered that government that tri-cameral parliament which was created by the government of that day.

But today we are bothered by those people, they are pressing down our colleagues here that is the mat on which one wipes ones feet. They are people of apartheid and discrimination, these people that entered the government of apartheid and went into the tri-cameral parliament and they did not ask where the other blacks were.

That was something good which they did which ultimately when they realised all the Democratic Party received the right for its voice to be heard by the people.

The community or the citizens of South Africa were grateful to the Democratic Party because on 2 June of this year a lot of people voted for it, and chose it as a party which is better than all the parties here in South Africa except the ANC even though they came second according to the vote.

I think we must say this because perhaps even the press did not pay attention to it, to bring it out so that it is clear. 

Let me end then Mr Speaker, by saying the black people know about apartheid which they had gone through.  They do not need to be taught about it and they need not to be told about it, and also they do not need to be forced to re-open sores and the grazes which they received in times passed as a result of apartheid, they do not need to ask the question how are they going to cure those sores.  Thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 132 ln 14)

[I will call on the hon member Mr Mkhize who has six minutes].
(pg 133 ln 23)

[The hon member is left with one minute only].
(pg 134 ln 34)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker and the House, I am grateful for this opportunity to express my feelings, and to express the feelings of our party which is the National Party, in regard to the death which recently occurred in the family of the Prince of Mandlakazi.

What is important, to the Prince of Mandlakazi and others who have been affected by death, we want to express our deepest sympathy and our deepest feelings to the family.  What I want to say here before I heard of this tragedy.  On the 2 June there was a commitment from all the parties who signed a document which spoke about peace in this Province.  But from what we see happening around us, and the way in which things are happening and the way people are being killed, we see that this document did not amount to much.

Something else which is important which we could point out here which we see, yes all our eyes are looking at the fact that the police are doing nothing, they are not doing their job properly, yes that is true, they are not doing their job properly.

But there is another important thing here.  Members of organisations, members of Parliament, members of political parties some of these people have contributed to the death of people because of the way things are done.  Because some of the speakers who spoke before me painted a true picture of what happens when earlier speakers said that members leave from here and go to a certain place to deal with a situation that has arisen and when they get there they do not ask questions but they start fighting amongst themselves.

In a situation such as the one I have sketched the people that we go to visit have great hope that because we have come something is going to happen that we are going to be able to make a difference.  But the parties are fighting just as one would expect to see dogs fighting over a bone.

It saddens me greatly at this time when people trifle with peoples lives, and trifle with peoples feelings.  I am appealing to us irrespective of what political party we belong to, irrespective of anything else, I think that the most important thing is that we must not trifle with innocent peoples lives.  

It is very sad that there are specific places here in KwaZulu-Natal.  In these specific places the situation is very tense, people are continuing to die and will continue to die if we do not stop the situation now.

Down there in Madlala's area there is a situation which is similar to the situation which we saw at Ewema.  Here at Nongoma there is a situation which prevails which is similar to that which we saw at Ewema.  As a result of this, if this situation is not stopped, my people, we are approaching the Christmas holidays, when people will continue to bear grudges and to want to settle old scores and blood will continue to be spilt.  In fact a lot of blood will be spilt, more blood will be spilt than has already been spilt.

If we place the importance of party politics above peoples lives then it is my opinion that we are doing nothing.  In that case it is my opinion that we are like people who have come here to play the fool with people, if that is the case then we have come here to make people suffer.  I do not want to concentrate to much on the video that we saw at Ewema, those who were there will be my witnesses, that video that we saw there at Ewema that is still happening in this Chamber up until now, less than ten minutes after people were fighting.

Therefore I say I am saddened friends I am also irritated, it is also irritating for the people that chose us, for us to do such a thing.  How can we expect people to respect us when we do not respect ourselves.  When we walk around we expect people to respect us as people who are working for the government.  But the manner in which we do things does not show to people that we merit respect and does not create a situation where the community feels inclined to respect us.

So I say yes, I agree that the police are not doing their work.  But we who belong to political parties have also played a part in this.  We have a bad influence, we do not display a mature outlook because what is happening is shocking.  I feel very saddened indeed that even now there is still this competition, and people say all these things which used to happen at the time when the whites were still in control it used to be said, happened as a result of the apartheid government, everything was blamed on the apartheid government, but today the same thing is happening, in fact now it appears that it is worse than before.

Because now the fight is between black and black, there is no white person that lives at Ewema, as people are shooting at each other every day.  No one here is responsible for the violence at Ewema, but it is the organisations that are responsible for perpetuating violence in the places that are similar to places such as Ewema.

So I say we, in our party will commit ourselves very much to peace which we singed before the general election on 2 June.  So this means that there are people who are no longer following that route which they committed themselves to, by signing that document, which was signed on that day, which was a commitment to peace.

It has become fashionable today to speak glibly about peace, and to glibly imply that there is something such as peace.  It is not right to say that you have peace here in front of us and behind our backs you do not perpetuate peace.

So I say this is shocking Mr Speaker, this is something which should be attended to immediately, this is something which must be addressed by the men and women of this country, this nation which is being decimated, the nation which is being killed like flies, this is shocking my friends, it is very bitter for a bystander who is standing to one side and looking on.  So I say in our party we are very committed to peace at all times, at all times we will remain committed to peace in this country and we will remain committed to the prevention of bloodshed.  I thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 135 ln 6)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker and the hon House, we object and reject what has happened here in this House.  This is being done by our colleagues who have come a long way with us.  We hear that it also happened at Ewema and we object to the fact that it happened even there.

I believe that they could have sat down and negotiated and consulted with each other and found a way and not attacked each other in front of the people.  It is also not right when we are engaged in activities on behalf of this House to go along with hidden agendas and certain things with which we hope to influence and win the hearts of the people when we get to our destination.  Especially in places where the people are dying, where the people are fighting.

I am one of those who is going to withdraw, Mr Speaker, when it is said that we are going to places because I have seen that when we get there we are going to do this then we look like a circus in front of the people.  Whereas in fact if we are going to stop the people from fighting, even if we are not on friendly terms we must go there in one spirit, we must try this even if we are not on good terms with each other.  We must not make politics the most important thing where people are dying. 

Mr Speaker and hon House the debate on the following....  T/E
(pg 136 ln 35)

[Prince Cyril Zulu of KwaMandlakazi is a person who is a member of the Royal House].
(pg 137 ln 19)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I am preaching here to uNdosi and my brother Ntombela.  I know that you are very angry, I work with you and I love you both.  It is my suggestion that we go out of this House I will take you to one of the hotels, and the two of us will dine together, and this disagreement that has broken out will be resolved.  Thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 138 ln 10)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Speaker.  Perhaps I should start by saying, that I am in this House because of working for peace.  Peace brought me to this House.  It is saddening Speaker to see the way things are done in this House.

At a meeting of the Portfolio Committee for Safety and Security, I raised this issue and this can be checked.  The issue I raised was to the effect that we go from here and we go to people who have suffered because of violence, and when we get to them we are no longer members of Parliament but we are members of political parties.  T/E
(pg 139 ln 20)

[The hon member is left with one minute].
(pg 140 ln 31)

TRANSLATION:  Perhaps if we do not talk about these things, perhaps it would be better if we who see that we are not contributing in this House should leave.  If things in this House are going to be used and used in the wrong context you cannot expect the people who pay money to us to be paid on the 15th,  to continue doing so and yet we let politics go to our heads and do the wrong things.

Mr Speaker, there are people here, perhaps you heard them talking, when they were talking about a person dying and sounded if they were talking about the death of a dog.  This is just cheap talk here, they say a person is dead he is dead, why do we speak in this fashion?  

Mr Speaker, Mr Ntombela said on a certain day we will stand before God, to account for the fact that at a time when we were chosen to lead the people, to save the people, but there are people here Mr Speaker, who are dying and yet nothing is said about them, here at Mpumalanga people are being eradicated, people are being eradicated today.

There is an election at Mpumalanga for the people of Mpumalanga on the 28 November this coming Saturday, we will be completing ten years of peace at Mpumalanga.  But there are people who still bear the wounds of those times that is 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 that was the time when there was violence at Mpumalanga.

Two weeks ago a child of five years was hit with a bullet from a firearm.  The bullet entered here on this side and exited here on that side.  Mr Speaker, I do not want us to politicise this thing which we are going to talk about in this House because once we politicise the issue we will be missing the point.

I am appealing once more Mr Speaker, in this House to the leadership of the IFP, to intervene very very seriously and to solve the mess, the killings, the slaughtering, which is taking place in Mpumalanga Unit 4.  People are dying on a daily basis.  In 1991 we had a meeting with the hon Dr Mdlalose at Albany House together with Mr Zungu, we asked in peace that they would intervene.  We told them that people were being eradicated there.  We sat at Albany House, the issue was discussed and yet the people continued to die, the situation that I am referring to continued for a week.

After that we had a meeting.  I took the initiative as a member, I spoke to Mr Nsele of the IFP at the office in Durban and I said that Inkatha must do something, people are dying at Mpumalanga on a daily basis.

He convened a meeting, the hon member who is a member of Parliament at national level that is Mr V V Ndlovu, Mr Dingila, Mr Mzobe came, the hon member of Parliament who is present in this House, Mr Xaba and we sat down and we put the issues and we asked ourselves the question what was the cause of the people dying here at Unit 4.

They left there saying that they would return and they never returned, up until today we are still waiting for them to return.  That was way back in May last year.  After that Mr Speaker, I again took the initiative and I came and spoke to Mr Ntombela the Induna of the Inland region, I cannot remember who the person was in his office and I said we must intervene, the people are dying at Mpumalanga.  Mr Ntombela gave me a report that they had spoken - indeed on a certain day when I was passing there it was a Sunday at Mpumalanga they were standing at the hall, they said the people are still dying.

I went back Mr Speaker, for information the IFP councillor here Mr Ntshangase, who is an exile has run away.  Other leaders of Inkatha being at the location.  I was a member, they were no longer able to call a meeting and take decisions at council level, I used to go and call the people and explain to the people who belonged to Inkatha because he cannot call a meeting because the people are killing each other.

What happens Mr Speaker, at present the situation there at Mpumalanga, I will ask that when we rectify this issue I will ask the House today, to take time and choose a team which is not chosen on political lines, it should be a team which will come back with a report and the report must say what is going to be done about the problem at Unit 4 because people are dying on a daily basis.

But another problem that has now arisen here Mr Speaker, is the problem of gangsters.  One leader has his own gangster and he destroys people here, another leader has his own gangster and he destroys people there.  The crime rate there at Unit 4 is such that if you want to sell a house there at Unit 4, the bank will not finance you over an amount of R3000 and yet you are selling a four roomed house in a township because nobody wants to buy a house in that area.

So I am saying Mr Speaker, I am appealing today, and I will quote again, Mr Speaker if people continue to die, I raised this issue on the 23rd in this House.  I was very pleased on Saturday people from Lindelani told the Prince of KwaMinya...

Okay, the Prince of KwaMinya, Inkosi uNgubane was told that things are such and such at Lindelani because they came and solved the problem.  I am appealing today Mr Speaker, that we should select a team that will sort out the problem which has arisen at Mpumalanga because people are dying and in spite of the people dying cases are not opened.  The police are booking out firearms and giving them to people to kill each other with those firearms and then the next morning they take the firearms back to the police station.

If we could sit down with Mgazu and ask them who are the people responsible for killing the people with firearms, where do they  get these firearms from they will tell you that the councillor of Inkatha has gone to such and such a place.  And you ask at the police station and you find that it is divided into two.  Firearms are booked out and people are killed during the night, and the next morning those firearms are returned to the police station, those are the allegations that have been made.

I am saying Mr Speaker, I am appealing and I am requesting that when we debate this issue in this House we should not politicise it because the problem will not be solved, the people will continue to die.  People want to turn this into a political issue but people are dying at Mpumalanga like 1987, 1988, 1989, there is still violence between Inkatha and ANC, that is the prevailing situation at Mpumalanga.  Thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 141 ln 7)

[Thank you very much]
(pg 142 ln 32)

[The hon member has one minute].
(pg 144 ln 7)

TRANSLATION: Mr Speaker, this afternoon I want to thank Mr Ndosi who proposed that this issue should be debated because this is an issue of great concern to us.  We will remember that before 1994 a lot of blood flowed in this our Province, so much so that when we went into the elections for people to go and make their crosses everybody said I can put this thing behind me, we have now entered a new era, I have now voted.

Many promises had been made to the people.  These promises were written on all sorts of documents which were designed for campaigning in the election, which election was contested by different political parties.  Each person believed that after 1994 we would live without bloodshed.

You will remember that after that as an indication that weapons had been put aside certain military organisations were disbanded and joined the soldiers the official South African Defence Force. People who had come from different military organisations were told that they would now serve in the defence force.  We all believed that the destruction of people was at an end, the killing of people was at an end.  But we are still seeing this.

I again direct myself to the members of this House and I say to them let us work and forget about politics, as the hon member Radebe has already said.  If we work for peace let us forget about our political differences, let us go out as one House and preach the gospel of peace as one.  Because this division amongst us causes the rogues on the outside to capitalise on our emphasis on party politics.  And even when the violence has abated, we wake up in the morning and we find that people have died, people continue to die and then it is said: no these are criminals this is criminality.  But the criminals, if you listen carefully, the criminals are doing what they are doing under the umbrella of party politics which is still rife in this House. 

Let us all speak with one voice and say: "Down with violence" and we must say it and really mean it.  What happened in June, this June, an agreement was signed between the large political parties which are represented in this House.  We all believed that things would go well in this province from 1999 onwards right up until the year 2004, that everybody will be careful to ensure that all those who chose him as their representative and chose him to be a member of the government, would have their needs met because everybody has got needs which they would like to be met.

But you find that today this thing is handicapping progress, the thing that is handicapping progress is that people are still at each others throats.  An example is the Portfolio Committee for Peace that keeps visiting places when people have been killed. 

We know that the people are continuing to die, perhaps it is faction fighting, and also these wars that are caused because of taxi violence and then of course there is crime.  We must tell the people to refrain from all sorts of criminality which we find here.  We in this House should go out as one and stop this criminality and say away with crime.  I thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 144 ln 12)

[Mr Speaker and the hon House]
(pg 146 ln 13)

[The day they shot him].
(pg 146 ln 15)

[I appeal to my colleagues, let us use our leadership and we should all hold hands and leave our political affiliation aside.  Our Province will never come right if we do not come together colleagues....]
(pg 147 ln 2)


[You have one minute].
(Pg 147 ln 5)

[Our children will not get anything.  I thank you].
(pg 147 ln 7)

[rest in peace]
(pg 147 ln 19)

[The hon member is left with one minute].
(pg 147 ln 35)

TRANSLATION:  Lastly, let me thank Mr Shabalala for bringing us back onto the right path, and Mr Mackenzie and the other speakers.  I am saddened that an old father like Mr Ntombela refused to conduct himself in seemly fashion because he knows very well the truth of what happened on that day.

I am speaking about this issue because it happened exactly as it happened and yet people come here and tell the incorrect version, instead of rectifying the issue it would have been better if after rectifying the issue we could have got on with our lives -that would have been much better. 

I would ask that we must be careful that the leadership of the ANC and IFP prevents these things that have been mentioned which may cause violence.  I remember that Mr Ntombela was present when I was talking to my brother Mncwango and telling him that he was spreading this issue concerning the fact that Mthimkhulu was going to be killed.  I also spoke about this issue to Mr Ntombela, he will remember it well, I also spoke to him, that is to brother Mncwango, that there are people that are witnesses to the fact that he said this thing to them.  These sort of things cause the prevailing situation which is continuing to be perpetuated.  Mr Mncwango is one of the most respected members of the IFP.  It is most unbecoming that he would go around saying such things.  

This is the sort of thing which causes the situation to become tense.  We must ensure that these situations do not arise and that they are completely eradicated.  We again announce to the leadership that we must ensure that this situation is eradicated.  In closing I will request that those who have been threatened in some way should be guarded as all the members present here in this Parliament are guarded.  I thank you Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 148 ln 4)

[The men should agree.  I am speaking the truth as far as rape is concerned].
(pg 153 ln 30)

[I asked her where are you going mother, indeed I am leaving this house]
(pg 157 ln 32)

[I said what is wrong mother - oh my child is lost].
(pg 157 ln 33)

[I think that there is someone who is bewitching me in this House and he is looking at me].
(pg 169 ln 18)

[when someone is talking and he says he is dreaming]
(pg 184 ln 25)

[Mr Speaker, I hope that the debate regarding the education crisis in this Province will give a clear picture with regard to the actual situation of education in KwaZulu-Natal].
(pg 207 ln 30)

[The hon member is left with one minute]
(pg 220 ln 8)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, let me start by congratulating the hon Minister of Education for earning the medals that have been reported to us in this House, perhaps I should start by congratulating them.

We know that the Department of Education is a big Department where the future learned people and experts of this House are shaped.  This requires us as members of this House to speak with one voice and come up with a solution as to what we are going to do, to ensure that our children obtain a proper education and that they are able to advance, so that our country can advance.

Having said that Mr Speaker, there are certain things that we would like to point out that have to be examined.  Perhaps we should look at the situation regarding textbooks.  We should perhaps ask ourselves the question whether textbooks will arrive on time next year when the schools reopen.  We must also ask if the process has not already started to transport the books to the schools, have they started preparing for next year when the schools reopen.

Meetings regarding the issuing of tenders should be held speedily before the schools close for the holidays.  When schools reopen no lessons will be held on the first day if the textbooks have not arrived.

Secondly something else which needs to be examined is the ever widening gap between the schools that were known as black schools in comparison to the schools that were known as the white schools or were known as Model C schools.  If one looks at the gap between these schools you would see that the things that pertain to those schools function differently, right now you will find that all the parents have already paid, everything is in a state of readiness for next year.

They have facilities which are at a better level.  This causes the situation that our people who are poor find themselves having to send their children to these schools and they pay between R3000 and R4000 a year.  In comparison to the R20 and R70 which is paid at our schools.

It is indeed true that the glittering things are found over there.  At some of these schools where one finds the glittering things, you will find that they have security guards at the gate.  As far as our schools are concerned you find that anybody can just enter, you find that the criminals are walking up and down inside the school and our children are not taught in safety.  

I visited one of the schools in Dannhauser and the situation is that at that school things are not going well.  Hon Minister they are still teaching children in the dust there is not even one window.  If you look at it, it looks as if the school is one year old.

I would recommend that the hon Minister should send a team to go and look at the situation at the school.  Another school which is in a similar position is the one that I have already mentioned, the school at Gobhoza there at my place of birth at Eshowe.  When we arrived there we found that the children were carrying buckets to go and fetch water - they had been sent to fetch the water by the teachers, there is no water.  If a child looses consciousness nothing is done. 

Lastly, hon Minister we know that in this Province of ours it is still prevalent for old people to sign by means of affixing their thumb print.  Let me suggest that the hon Minister should make provision in her programme for adult education so that they would stop having to sign by means of affixing their thumb print.  We thank you.  T/E
(pg 220 ln 16)

[I like this speech because it assists me when people read it, we will read it well and understand, it should not cause problems].
(pg 230 ln 23)

[Humanity is important every time, these are our Ministers].
(pg 230 ln 30)

[There is not even money for overtime Minister]
(pg 231 ln 26)

[Highly trained nursing sisters used to emanate from these institutions, hon Speaker there in the inland regions of our country, they were prepared to close the gaps in the large hospital which is to be built].
(pg 231 ln 5)

[There are not even enough blankets to cover patients, you get an old man lying without a blanket on the bed]. 
(pg 231 ln 15)

[They have got used to tolerating the situation hon Minister.  Things have to be fetched sometimes, things have to be borrowed from another ward because perhaps in that particular ward the people have died and the beds are empty]
(pg 231 ln 19)

[The medicines which cure BP, diabetics]
(pg 231 ln 23)

[Elderly people who suffer from children's diseases are forced to go to hospitals where they are turned back.  I would like to warn the Minister because he does not get the other story.  The Minister has to investigate the issue of ambulance drivers].
(pg 231 ln 26)

[It is very bad Mr Speaker, because we have been amalgamated]
(pg 231 ln 29)

[They are called baboons, that is true].
(pg 231 ln 30)

[People are talking about that, we will be monitored by even the protection services.  Thank you Mr Speaker].
(pg 232 ln 36)

[I will now call upon hon member Z M Ludidi who has five minutes].
(pg 232 ln 5)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Health because of his programme which fights HIV/AIDS, this programme is lead by the Minister himself.

We see him coming in and out of our homes and this is an indication that indeed the campaign is in full swing.  While we were sitting in this hon House during October the Department of Health gave all the hon members badges regarding AIDS, as an indication of this Houses commitment to the fight against this virus which is the HIV virus as well as against full-blown AIDS.

However it is sad to see that the very members who are leading this fight have forgotten their weapons and I am referring to the badges.  It leaves one with a question, if they are unable to put on their badges are they able to speak at all times on the dangers of AIDS.  

If we Mr Speaker, are unable to fight the fight, how can we expect that other people are going to join us in this campaign.  Hon member Mrs Downs who is not present in the Chamber just now, says she is tired of wearing this badge but the fight is not yet over.  I do not know whether this means that she is tired ....

So, Mr Speaker, I am requesting that your hon House to show by its actions outside of this House its commitment and in their hearts and with their mouths that indeed they are fighting this deadly disease.  The first action in the fight against this disease will be the wearing of the badges, the second action will be talking about the fight against the disease.

Mr Speaker, the badge makes you speak about AIDS even if you had not intended to do so because there are people who asked you why you are wearing it?  I entered Steers and a white girl asked me why I was wearing the badge, because she said we know they keep on talking about these things but I have never believed that they were experts.  But after having spoken to her she eventually showed me that she did not know.  I then took the opportunity there and then and I explained to her about the subject, I explained to her together with the customers who had come to buy.

This Mr Speaker, is evidence that if you wear your badge you are forced to talk and you are actually talking when you are silent.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 233 ln 31)

[Let me thank you for being right on time.  Let me ask hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore who has got only five minutes].
(pg 233 ln 18)

[The hon member has one more minute
(pg 234 ln 32)

[Thank you very much.  Hon member Mr Naicker has six minutes only]
(pg 235 ln 4)

[the white member comes from Germany
(pg 235 ln 30)

[I will call upon hon member Mrs Downs -she has four minutes].
(pg 239 ln 13)

[I will call upon hon member Mr Nxumalo, he has four minutes as well].
(pg 240 ln 10)









